S9E121 REPLAY Tristan Fischer / Fischer Farms - A Looming Food Crisis, Sustainability, & Building a Culture of Kindness | The #1 show dedicated to the vertical farming and indoor agtech industry!

Tristan Fischer has been involved in sustainable energy and sustainable food for over twenty years. He has been the Chairman or CEO of numerous companies, including Fischer Farms, a vertical farming/hydroponics business. Today, Tristan joins the show to discuss the benefits of vertical farm crops over field-grown crops, the looming food security crisis, and the importance of being a kind and empathetic leader

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Key Takeaways

07:13 – Tristan Fischer joins the show to share his background in finance, the evolution of renewables, and his passion for sustainability

17:15 – Vertical farming crops vs. field-grown crops

21:54 – Feeding the world: Tristan’s vertical farming origin story

31:16 – The inspiration to launch Fischer Farms and how Tristan has grown as a CEO

42:12 – The importance of being kind and empathetic

45:08 – Fischer Farms’ offerings and ideal clients

48:56 – A tough question Tristan has had to ask himself recently

51:43 – A specific ask Tristan has for his colleagues in the vertical farming industry

52:37 – Harry thanks Tristan for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can go to connect with him and learn more about Fischer Farms

Tweetable Quotes

“If you want to do good in the world, you also need to actually be profitable and develop businesses that are intrinsically capitalistic. Using capital to grow and having a business which is purely based on charitable activity isn’t good enough if you want to make a difference.” (10:52) (Tristan)

“When I was first doing solar projects, solar really wasn’t a great technology. Wind wasn’t really a great technology. It was expensive. It was intermittent. And, if you move on to twenty years after I started and you look in the UK now, the new wind energy systems that are coming onstream are the lowest cost electricity in the market, with the exception of solar.” (14:35) (Tristan)

“The quality that you get from vertical farming is just better than the quality that you get from a field-grown crop. It’s tastier, has a longer shelf life, is more nutritious, it has a lower environmental footprint. There’s just a whole long list of reasons why vertical farm products are better than field-grown crops.” (18:35) (Tristan)

“About twenty-five percent of all the world’s food production comes from land which uses aquifer water for irrigation. And, in about twenty years time, in most of the world where they have that type of system, that water will be gone or unusable.” (24:53) (Tristan)

“I think that ultimately what you’re trying to do as a CEO is get the best out of your team because, ultimately, you need them. They are the specialists. They are the ones who understand the lighting, the water systems, the technology, and the growing.” (36:10) (Tristan)

“I think that, as a CEO, creating that culture is very important. A culture of trust, of openness,and dare I say, of kindness, and love, and affection. We want people to be nice to each other, tobe good to each other, because if they are nice and good to each other, the more likely they areto cooperate and help each other out. And that’s what it’s all about really.” (41:48) (Tristan)

Resources Mentioned

Tristan’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanfischer/? originalSubdomain=uk

Fischer Farms – https://www.fischerfarms.co.uk/

Fischer Farms LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/fischer-farms-ltd/

Natural Capitalism – https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Capitalism-Creating-Industrial-Revolution/dp/0316353000

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[00:00.000 --> 00:04.080] In today's market conditions, indoor farming providers are struggling to tell their story [00:04.080 --> 00:07.920] in a way that resonates with their current and future customers. And while most owners have [00:07.920 --> 00:12.880] strong expertise in operations and farming, marketing, and specifically social media, [00:12.880 --> 00:16.880] is usually left to a junior team member with little to no experience. [00:16.880 --> 00:18.160] Big Opportunity Mist [00:18.160 --> 00:22.640] If your company has been struggling with social media marketing, Agtech marketing team can help. [00:22.640 --> 00:26.400] For an investment that's much less than what you'd pay to build and hire a full team, [00:26.400 --> 00:31.280] their team of specialists can provide support for strategy, paid media, community management, [00:31.280 --> 00:35.760] content generation, influencer, and email marketing. To learn more and schedule a free call, [00:35.760 --> 00:42.320] visit agtechmarketingteam.com. [00:42.320 --> 00:52.480] Vertical Farming Podcast [00:52.480 --> 00:57.920] Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations with fascinating CEOs, [00:57.920 --> 01:03.440] founders, and agtech visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the world [01:03.440 --> 01:06.800] of vertical farming with your host, Harry Duran. [01:07.760 --> 01:09.440] Vertical Farming Podcast [01:10.080 --> 01:17.200] Wrapping up Season 9 with a bonus episode. Thanks for being patient. There's been a bit of a gap in [01:17.200 --> 01:22.720] the past couple of weeks as we've gotten everything ready. A lot's been happening on our end. In case [01:22.720 --> 01:29.840] you missed the news, we have merged with iGrow News. I've always been a big fan of what Herb [01:29.840 --> 01:35.920] and Sepper and the team has developed with the iGrow News site and the incredibly informative [01:35.920 --> 01:40.160] newsletters that they provide on a daily and weekly basis. Sepper and I have been [01:40.160 --> 01:46.320] connecting several times over the past few events, and as we continue to have those conversations, [01:46.320 --> 01:51.360] it just seemed to make more and more sense to put our collective efforts to a greater use [01:51.360 --> 01:56.160] and do our part to help broaden the awareness and reach of all the things happening in the [01:56.160 --> 02:02.560] agtech space. So the website is agtechmediagroup.com. We've got a bunch of new projects in the works. [02:02.560 --> 02:07.280] You'll see some consolidation in some of the branding. You'll see some references [02:07.840 --> 02:13.440] to the other properties at the bottom of the iGrow News publications. We've got several things [02:13.440 --> 02:17.920] in the works. We're working on a directory for the agtech space, a revamped job board, [02:17.920 --> 02:22.960] and also looking to partner with like-minded media companies in the space as well. So if [02:22.960 --> 02:26.560] there's something you're working on and you'd like to have a conversation with us, please reach out [02:27.120 --> 02:32.960] sepperatigrownews.com or harryatverticalfarmingpodcast.com. It's been a heck of a year, [02:32.960 --> 02:38.400] a lot of incredible news in the space, and lots to be excited for as well. This week as we get [02:38.400 --> 02:43.600] ready for season 10, I've decided to replay one of the more popular episodes from season seven. It's [02:43.600 --> 02:48.880] with Tristan Fisher of Fisher Farms. Tristan shared his background in finance, the evolution [02:48.880 --> 02:53.920] of renewables, and his passion for sustainability. And we talked a lot about his origin story, [02:53.920 --> 02:59.760] the inspiration to launch Fisher Farms, and his unique take on what's been happening in the space [02:59.760 --> 03:04.800] and where we're headed. And I think a lot of this information is still relevant and timely as we [03:04.800 --> 03:08.960] look forward towards 2024. So I wanted to give you a chance to listen to one of our more popular [03:08.960 --> 03:14.000] episodes and let you know that I'm extremely grateful for all the support I've received [03:14.000 --> 03:19.280] on the podcast over the years. It's been crazy to think that we're closing in on the fourth [03:19.280 --> 03:25.360] year of the show. So excited for season 10. If you have a CEO or a founder in mind that we have [03:25.360 --> 03:31.680] not spoken to or haven't spoken to in a while, please send their information to me harryatverticalfarmingpodcast.com. [03:31.680 --> 03:36.480] We still have some room in our season 10 roster and we're excited to kick things off in the new [03:36.480 --> 03:40.800] year. If you're interested in sponsorship, opportunities are still available. And because [03:40.800 --> 03:44.960] of our new partnership with iGrow News, there's a lot more we can be creative with. So if you're [03:44.960 --> 03:51.440] interested, reach out to us for more details and we'd be happy to have a chat. Okay, one last big [03:51.440 --> 03:55.920] thank you from the bottom of my heart for all our supporters and all our sponsors and all our [03:55.920 --> 04:00.480] partners that we've worked with, not just this year, but the past years as well. And so before [04:00.480 --> 04:04.880] we jump into this uninterrupted conversation with Tristan, a few more words from the amazing folks [04:04.880 --> 04:09.600] that support this show. Whether you're starting up or scaling up, indoor AgCon is the key to [04:09.600 --> 04:14.240] cultivating your business growth. Entering its 11th year, the largest trade show and conference [04:14.240 --> 04:18.960] for vertical farming, greenhouse operations, and controlled environment agriculture returns [04:18.960 --> 04:25.040] to Caesar's Forum Conference Center in Las Vegas on March 11th and 12th, 2024, and co-locates with [04:25.040 --> 04:29.680] the National Grocers Association show. The expo floor has expanded significantly to bring [04:29.680 --> 04:33.920] together even more new product resources and business solutions to explore. You'll also [04:33.920 --> 04:39.040] hear from top experts including CEOs, growers, investors, and other experts during the full [04:39.040 --> 04:43.040] scale educational conference. And don't miss out on valuable networking events connecting you [04:43.040 --> 04:47.360] with your peers, grocers, and other potential new business partners. As always, I'm grateful [04:47.360 --> 04:51.600] for this partnership with indoor icon. Vertical farming podcast listeners can save an additional [04:51.600 --> 04:57.200] 20% off already discounted early bird full access conference pass rates with our promo code [04:57.200 --> 05:03.520] VFP. Learn more at indoor.ag. So Tristan Fisher, CEO of Fisher Farms, thank you so much for joining [05:03.520 --> 05:08.240] me on the vertical farming podcast. Thank you very much for helping me. So for the benefit of [05:08.320 --> 05:16.400] listener, where are you calling in from? So I am Fisher Farms is based in the UK. And we have [05:16.400 --> 05:23.040] two vertical farm buildings, one, which is near Litchfield, which is just north of Birmingham, [05:23.040 --> 05:30.480] and which is northwest of London. And then we have a second vertical farm, which is currently [05:30.480 --> 05:35.120] under construction is actually being installed and fitted out at the moment. And that is [05:35.120 --> 05:40.640] just east of Cambridge, and a place called Norwich in north. So we have two vertical farms. [05:40.640 --> 05:47.920] And then we have a number of people, number of team members who are scattered around the UK for [05:47.920 --> 05:54.080] those who aren't specifically involved in farm operations. So we've got a bit of a wide [05:54.080 --> 05:58.640] footprint for the various people within the organization. So we'll get into the specifics [05:58.640 --> 06:03.600] of Fisher Farms. And what I'd like to usually do first was wind the clock back a little bit [06:03.680 --> 06:08.960] to get a feel for how you ended up here. But I thought I'd ask since we are recording this [06:08.960 --> 06:14.640] in December of 2022, if you could describe in one or two words, what the year has been like for you [06:14.640 --> 06:20.720] and what if the holidays or this time of the year means a little bit of relaxing or if you [06:20.720 --> 06:26.400] have a chance to catch your breath. So 2022 has been a big year for us. And the reason for that [06:26.400 --> 06:31.600] is that we've spent a big chunk of it under construction. So we were currently building, [06:32.160 --> 06:38.160] having building our second vertical farm, which is a really big building. It's a four acre [06:38.160 --> 06:44.320] footprint building, has about 25,000 square meters of growing space inside it, which makes it [06:44.320 --> 06:50.320] probably one of the biggest vertical farms in the world. And so there's been a lot of work on the [06:50.320 --> 06:55.360] actual construction, the external construction site. But there's also been a huge amount of [06:55.360 --> 06:59.040] testing which we've been doing at various different locations. We've been testing of [06:59.120 --> 07:04.240] equipment at farm one, the original site near Litchfield. We've also been doing a lot of testing [07:04.240 --> 07:07.920] with all of our different suppliers and so forth like that to really make sure that when the [07:07.920 --> 07:15.200] equipment is installed, it actually works first time round, because it's a big building, big farm, [07:15.200 --> 07:20.000] and testing, testing, testing is absolutely critical. So it's been a very busy year. And [07:20.880 --> 07:26.720] we've been hiring people to work in farm two. So the team is getting bigger. And actually [07:26.720 --> 07:31.760] later on this evening, I'm going to be joining Christmas party with the farm two guys. So to [07:31.760 --> 07:36.640] sort of celebrate all the hard work that everybody's been doing throughout the year. So it's been a busy [07:36.640 --> 07:42.480] year, very exciting year, a lot of growth behind us. And then really, you know, when we hit the [07:42.480 --> 07:48.320] new year, all the equipment will be finally installed. And we'll start operating, generating [07:48.320 --> 07:54.000] food in the first quarter of next year out of the farm two building. So that's exciting stuff. [07:54.000 --> 07:58.000] So no, it's been a busy year. Sounds like yeah, I definitely want to get into the details of that. [07:58.000 --> 08:01.600] I was curious and doing a little bit of research, obviously, in a bit of your background, you get [08:01.600 --> 08:09.040] your start in finance, and then your first foray into renewables was the time you spent at Shell. [08:09.040 --> 08:13.120] So can you I know we're winding the clock a bit back here, but I just want to give provide some [08:13.120 --> 08:18.160] context with listener. Can you give a little bit of insight into if you can remember what [08:18.160 --> 08:23.760] things were like back then and where your interests started and renewables and sustainability? [08:23.760 --> 08:28.080] So I think I should probably start even before then at university as a Cambridge University. And [08:28.080 --> 08:34.160] I did some research for Paul Hawken, who wrote a book called Natural Capitalism. And Natural [08:34.160 --> 08:38.560] Capitalism was a was a fascinating book for me, because it really sort of highlighted how, [08:38.560 --> 08:44.240] if you want to do good in the world, you also need to actually be profitable and develop [08:44.240 --> 08:52.400] businesses which intrinsically capitalistic, so using no capital to grow, and having a [08:52.400 --> 08:57.680] business which is just purely a sort of charitable activity, isn't good enough if you want to make a [08:57.680 --> 09:02.160] big difference. And so that got me thinking about, well, what could I do with my life, [09:02.160 --> 09:09.600] which was meaningful, and actually sort of develop in a way which could put my services [09:09.600 --> 09:14.960] to the best use for sort of humanity as a whole. So renewables was a big thing in the [09:14.960 --> 09:19.280] mid 1990s, when I really sort of started off career, and I was involved in some of the [09:19.360 --> 09:24.560] very early wind projects and then solar projects and so forth. And there was an era where climate [09:24.560 --> 09:29.360] change was deemed as something which was going to happen in the future. It was a future problem, [09:29.360 --> 09:35.680] and we were trying to do things which we would help solve that issue. And really over the last [09:36.480 --> 09:41.600] 20 odd years or so, climate change has shifted from being a future problem to a problem which [09:41.600 --> 09:47.360] we are actually experiencing today. And there's a lot of evidence to show that it is happening. [09:47.360 --> 09:52.720] And there's a lot of evidence which suggests that it will continue to get worse over time. [09:52.720 --> 09:58.560] And so as a result of that, a lot of my activities sort of started to shift over the last few years [09:58.560 --> 10:04.240] away from just how can you deal with climate change in terms of trying to prevent it into how [10:04.240 --> 10:09.200] do you live with climate change? So if climate change is actually happening, what do you do [10:09.200 --> 10:15.360] in a world where the temperatures are rising, where you have very irregular weather patterns, [10:15.360 --> 10:19.120] so you can have a year where you'll have droughts, and then you can have floods, [10:19.120 --> 10:24.880] and then you can have cold patches, and you can have warm patches, all within a sort of six-month, [10:24.880 --> 10:29.440] 12-month period of time. And that's very difficult from an agricultural perspective. [10:29.440 --> 10:35.760] And so I was involved in a project a number of years ago with a big food group in the UK called [10:35.760 --> 10:41.440] Bernard Matthews, which is a large turkey producer and a large chicken producer. And [10:42.080 --> 10:49.040] they are grown in large controlled environment agricultural buildings. And we installed biomass [10:49.040 --> 10:55.200] heating systems into about 249 poultry sheds. And that was very interesting from a sort of [10:55.200 --> 11:00.080] climate change perspective, but also really got me thinking about food and how do we actually feed [11:00.080 --> 11:06.080] the world in a way where we can actually control all the environmental parameters. And so for me, [11:06.640 --> 11:13.520] the renewable side has been very much a link to what I'm doing in vertical farming. And actually, [11:14.080 --> 11:19.600] all of our vertical farms have strong renewable emphasis as well. So solar attached to them, [11:19.600 --> 11:26.880] batteries attached to them, wind attached to them as well. So I'm using the old access for the [11:26.880 --> 11:31.920] renewable sort of supply chain in the vertical farming sector as well. So it's a combination [11:31.920 --> 11:37.120] of food and energy production. Yeah, I thought it was really interesting, especially given how [11:37.120 --> 11:42.000] much experience you've had in renewables. You've also had some experience with wave energy as well [11:42.000 --> 11:47.600] in your time at Aquamie Power, if I read that correctly. Yeah, I mean, so I've now been involved [11:47.600 --> 11:53.520] in a lot of renewable energies. And so I've been involved in wind energy, solar energy, wave [11:53.520 --> 12:01.440] energy, tidal energy, smart grid, battery technology, energy efficiency for steel mills, [12:01.440 --> 12:09.440] for cement facilities, coal mine methane recovery. So a very, very large gamut of renewable energy [12:09.440 --> 12:16.080] technologies. And so I've seen cost curves change and seeing how you can have a technology which [12:16.080 --> 12:20.960] starts off being very, very expensive, and the technology which people go, well, this is never [12:21.040 --> 12:25.360] an amount of anything. So when I was first doing solar projects, solar really wasn't a great [12:25.360 --> 12:33.360] technology. Wind wasn't really a great technology. It was expensive, it was intermittent. And if you [12:33.360 --> 12:40.720] move on to the 2025 years off from when I started, if you look at the UK now, wind energy is the [12:40.720 --> 12:45.840] lowest, the new wind energy systems which are coming on stream are the lowest cost electricity [12:45.840 --> 12:53.280] in the market with the exception of solar. And if you look at solar, it's predicted that by 2027, [12:53.280 --> 13:01.440] there will be more solar installed globally than coal. And so you've seen a huge transition [13:01.440 --> 13:07.920] in the energy market. And the reason I mentioned this is because vertical farming today is a bit [13:07.920 --> 13:13.360] like solar and a bit like wind energy 20 years ago, it's an embryonic technology, [13:13.360 --> 13:19.200] it's really not good enough, but there are lots of hints about why it could be really fantastic. [13:19.200 --> 13:25.600] And so when I look at what I'm doing, I'm focusing on the here and now in terms of [13:25.600 --> 13:30.960] growing short leafy green things like most people in the market are, so salads and herbs and so [13:30.960 --> 13:37.200] forth. But ultimately, where we need to be going as an industry, moving to crops which actually [13:37.200 --> 13:42.560] make a big difference. And so for us, we have a photo of phase one crops which are short leafy [13:42.560 --> 13:47.520] green things, salads and herbs. We have a phase two crops which are fruiters, so things like [13:47.520 --> 13:52.240] strawberries and tomatoes, which yet again a lot of people are doing. But then finally, it's the [13:52.240 --> 13:58.560] phase three crops. And the phase three crops for us are rice and wheat in terms of carbohydrates, [13:58.560 --> 14:05.600] and then peas and soybeans in terms of protein. And so we've done trials with wheat, we've done [14:05.600 --> 14:10.160] trials with soy, we've done trials with peas. So we know we can grow it, we can know we can [14:10.160 --> 14:15.840] grow it at good volumes. But really the question is how do we get the price point of those products [14:15.840 --> 14:20.640] so that they are also competitive with field growing crops? And if we can do that, then you [14:20.640 --> 14:27.520] can feed the world. And that is extraordinarily exciting to be part of an industry which is [14:27.520 --> 14:33.360] transforming itself so rapidly. I have the faith that it can happen based on the practical [14:33.360 --> 14:38.480] experience that I've had with renewables where I have seen renewables technology go from not [14:38.480 --> 14:46.960] very good, very expensive technologies to massive, huge industries, which are cheaper than natural [14:46.960 --> 14:52.640] gas, cheaper than coal, cheaper than nuclear. And so it can be done. Yeah, it's really interesting. [14:52.640 --> 14:57.760] All the experience you've had, some experience in aquaculture as well. So it seems like you've had [14:57.760 --> 15:02.240] your hands, smart batteries, I think was a little bit, I saw some time there as well. And [15:02.240 --> 15:07.360] all those pieces really are important in painting the picture for folks that are just [15:07.440 --> 15:12.400] getting acquainted with vertical farming and seeing a lot of people say it's a [15:13.200 --> 15:17.440] Fed or it's something that's not sustainable. And I think a lot of the arguments against [15:17.440 --> 15:21.520] vertical farming are probably ones that you experienced in the early days when people were [15:21.520 --> 15:27.840] talking about the viability of wind, the viability of solar, even things like wave. And are you [15:27.840 --> 15:33.760] seeing like those same sort of parallels in terms of the adoption curve, the hype curve, [15:34.240 --> 15:39.360] businesses getting a lot of funding and failing, which is something we've now seen recently in the [15:39.360 --> 15:43.920] world of vertical farming as well. And it's interesting because of your perspective and your [15:43.920 --> 15:47.920] background and your experience with these technologies that I'm wondering if you are [15:47.920 --> 15:54.160] seeing parallels in terms of people's response to it, and also gauging where we are in that [15:54.160 --> 15:59.760] lifecycle compared to you've worked on in the past. I think that at Fisher Farms, [15:59.760 --> 16:04.320] the real focus that we have is actually on producing products which are cost competitive [16:04.320 --> 16:09.680] with field grown crops. So our view is that if we can compete head to head at the same price point [16:10.240 --> 16:15.440] with field grown crops, then we should be able to sell our products into the market. [16:15.440 --> 16:20.320] Because as all of your listeners and all the various speakers that you've had on your [16:20.320 --> 16:26.080] podcast will be aware of, the quality that you get from vertical farming is just better [16:26.160 --> 16:31.760] than the quality you get from a field grown crop. It's tastier, has longer shelf life, [16:31.760 --> 16:36.960] has more nutritious, has a lower environmental footprint. There's just a whole long list of [16:36.960 --> 16:42.080] reasons why vertical farm products are better than field grown crops. But the problem is that [16:42.080 --> 16:48.000] if your product is more expensive than field grown crops, then essentially, you go back down to the [16:48.000 --> 16:54.880] charitable act, which I was talking about very, very early on, with the Paul Hawken analogy [16:54.880 --> 16:59.920] that you need to have product which actually is commercially viable. So you can actually use [16:59.920 --> 17:06.720] the profit incentive to do well, do more of the same, reinvest the profits, do more of the same, [17:06.720 --> 17:13.440] reinvest those profits again and again and again. So for us, focusing on cost parity is really, [17:13.440 --> 17:21.120] really important. And I think that if you're a business which is focused on premium and focused [17:21.120 --> 17:26.480] on, wow, we have the most amazing quality, but we're much more expensive, then your market will [17:26.480 --> 17:32.400] always be smaller than it would be if you have a product which people just buy because it's cheap. [17:32.400 --> 17:38.240] And you could do a little bit of a premium product, but ultimately, people are worried about their [17:38.240 --> 17:44.640] pocketbooks. They're worried about how much money they're spending on food, on spending in general. [17:44.640 --> 17:48.080] And so if you have a product which is the same price point, you'll do well. [17:48.080 --> 17:55.680] And so our focus as a business is always about price competitiveness. And so although, for example, [17:55.680 --> 18:00.800] we know that we can grow phase two crops, the strawberries and the tomatoes, et cetera, [18:00.800 --> 18:05.520] at the moment, we can't sell those products at a price point, which is competitive with [18:05.520 --> 18:10.080] field-grown crops. And there are certain things which have to change in our business [18:10.080 --> 18:16.400] and externally that until those changes happen, we will be too expensive. Same thing for our [18:16.400 --> 18:22.160] phase three crops. So we know we can grow rice. We know we can grow wheat. We know we can grow [18:22.160 --> 18:27.680] soybeans and peas. That's a fact, but we're too expensive. And we think that we will remain [18:27.680 --> 18:33.600] too expensive in those products for a good 10 to 15 years period of time. But 10 to 15 years [18:34.240 --> 18:38.960] sounds like a lot, but it's not. It really is actually a very short period of time. [18:38.960 --> 18:43.920] And yet again, if you've got the experience that I have in renewables and I've seen the world [18:43.920 --> 18:49.280] change over the last 20, 25 years or so, I have real confidence that something which is [18:49.280 --> 18:57.440] too expensive now can be the right price point in 10 to 15 years time. And we have a pretty good [18:57.440 --> 19:02.560] plan at Fisher Farms to actually get ourselves down that cost curve from where we are now, [19:02.560 --> 19:07.520] which is too expensive, to where we need to be, which is it's going to take 10 to 15 years to [19:07.520 --> 19:11.200] get there. Yeah, it's a very helpful perspective for the listener, especially for folks that are [19:11.200 --> 19:18.640] looking for quick results or are trying to turn things around in a time frame that's not reasonable. [19:18.640 --> 19:23.680] And obviously using the context of renewables and the experience you've had in the adoption [19:23.680 --> 19:28.160] curve for them earlier on, I think people need to have a little bit more patience. And I think [19:28.160 --> 19:31.760] sometimes in this environment, it's hard, especially when you're talking about investors [19:31.760 --> 19:35.680] investing tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in some of these projects and are looking [19:35.680 --> 19:40.640] for profitability on a time frame that's not realistic. And I think it's helpful to have that [19:40.720 --> 19:46.720] perspective. I'm curious for yourself when you became aware of indoor farming, when it [19:46.720 --> 19:50.080] came on your radar, and it's something you started to pay attention to. [19:50.080 --> 19:58.880] So it very much came on radar around 2015, 2016 or so. So this was the point where I [19:58.880 --> 20:03.440] sort of kind of came to the conclusion that there were a lot of people doing renewables, [20:03.440 --> 20:08.160] and the market shifted from being a very open market to a market which was getting [20:08.160 --> 20:13.040] increasingly crowded. And it was getting crowded in the sense that, first of all, [20:13.040 --> 20:18.800] a lot of people were doing it, but it was also the sense that it was never going to be quite enough [20:18.800 --> 20:24.400] to actually solve the sort of climate crisis. And as I started to think about what responses [20:24.400 --> 20:28.960] you could have for that, I started to investigate the food sector in more detail. [20:28.960 --> 20:35.200] And so one of the things which always struck me was how the population has expanded over the [20:35.200 --> 20:40.640] last few decades. So my father was born in 1930. He's 92 years old now. And there were [20:40.640 --> 20:44.960] two billion people alive when he was born, and there are now eight billion people. [20:44.960 --> 20:51.200] So four times increase in the population. But if you look deeper, and you say, look at the [20:51.200 --> 20:57.440] year 2000, there are a billion middle class people in the year 2000. And in 2020, there were four [20:57.440 --> 21:02.640] billion middle class people. Now, that's an amazing accomplishment. It's amazing to think [21:02.640 --> 21:08.960] that we've gone from one billion in 2000 to four billion middle class people just 20 years later. [21:08.960 --> 21:13.920] And that's something which we as a human species should be immensely proud of, that we're taking [21:13.920 --> 21:19.120] so many people out of poverty. But there is an issue associated with that as well. And the [21:19.120 --> 21:25.360] issue is that those four billion people want the kind of lifestyles which we take for granted in the [21:25.360 --> 21:30.240] West. So they want to have the salads and the herbs and the salmon and the steaks, and they [21:30.240 --> 21:34.080] want to go on a holiday, and they want to go skiing, and they want to do all the sort of [21:34.080 --> 21:41.120] nice things which people get to do in the middle class. And that imposes a huge burden on the [21:41.120 --> 21:46.880] planet in terms of what it can sustain. And in the meantime, if you look at the agricultural [21:46.880 --> 21:52.160] sector directly, and you look at the two key things which you need for farming, one is land [21:52.160 --> 21:58.720] and one which is water, if you look in the land side, there is less good quality soil [21:58.720 --> 22:04.320] every single year. And that's partly because farming techniques are very damaging to the soil. [22:04.320 --> 22:10.480] But it's also because a lot of places where they have good farming, as the urban population [22:10.480 --> 22:17.200] increases, a lot of those locations which were once farmland have now become cities. And so [22:17.200 --> 22:23.360] if you look in China, you had a village of 10,000 people, then 20 years later, you got 20 million [22:23.360 --> 22:29.760] people living in fantastic agricultural land. So that great farmland has been turned into [22:30.880 --> 22:36.560] shopping malls and roads and apartment buildings and stuff like that. So the land is becoming a [22:36.560 --> 22:43.040] problem. And the second issue you have is water. So about 25% of all the world's food production [22:43.040 --> 22:50.240] comes from land which uses aquifer water for irrigation. And in about 20 years' time, [22:50.240 --> 22:56.480] in most of the world where they have that type of system, that water will be gone or will be [22:56.480 --> 23:02.880] unusable. 25% of the world's food comes from land, when 20 years' time, there won't be any water. [23:02.880 --> 23:08.240] And so you've got, on the one hand, a massive population increase. And the second, you've got [23:08.240 --> 23:14.400] a decrease in the world's ability to actually provide food for that increasing population and [23:14.400 --> 23:19.680] that increasing middle class. And so there's a larger and larger gap which is starting to [23:19.760 --> 23:26.800] emerge. And climate change is really putting fuel on that fire. So the fire already exists, [23:26.800 --> 23:31.840] but climate change just makes all of those issues worse. It makes it much more irregular [23:31.840 --> 23:36.000] in terms of creating harvests and stuff like that. So food security becomes a real problem. [23:36.000 --> 23:42.400] And so for me, as I was thinking about what to do, figuring out how to actually feed the world [23:42.400 --> 23:48.000] became increasingly a strong motivating factor for me. So I started looking at things like [23:48.000 --> 23:54.480] aquaculture. So looking at how we could grow fish onshore so we could reduce the impact we [23:54.480 --> 23:59.200] have on the oceans. And then also looking at vertical farming. And the vertical farming side, [23:59.200 --> 24:06.160] I think was most exciting for me or more exciting for me because of the realization that everybody [24:06.160 --> 24:12.320] fundamentally needs to have carbohydrates. And so if you can grow rice, if you can grow wheat, [24:12.320 --> 24:18.480] that's a major step forward. And ultimately, if you can grow proteins like peas and soy, [24:18.480 --> 24:23.920] that also allows most people to have a healthy vegetarian diet. And you could feed a lot of [24:23.920 --> 24:30.880] people in those kinds of systems. And to give you an idea, if you were to take Fisher Farms [24:30.880 --> 24:37.360] building and make it three quarters of the size of London. So in London, there's the capital, [24:37.360 --> 24:41.040] there's Ring Road, which goes all the way around it, some motorway called the M25. [24:41.040 --> 24:45.920] And if you were to fill that area, about three quarters of that area, one just ridiculously large [24:45.920 --> 24:52.800] building, that building is enough space to feed eight billion people out of it. So this is why [24:52.800 --> 24:57.440] vertical farming is just astounding. The productivity that you can get out of vertical [24:57.440 --> 25:04.800] farming without needing access to lots of soil. And because vertical farming uses a fraction of [25:04.800 --> 25:10.400] the water of conventional farming, you can actually grow a lot of food in areas where [25:10.400 --> 25:15.680] they've got lousy soil, where they don't have a lot of water, and actually have a very productive [25:15.680 --> 25:23.440] system. So we think that ultimately, no, we would want to be able to grow and develop vertical farms [25:23.440 --> 25:29.440] in places like North Africa, where you can have bad soil that have very, very good access to [25:29.440 --> 25:34.880] solar energy. So you build ridiculously large solar farms with ridiculously large vertical farms. [25:35.440 --> 25:42.000] And instead of having those countries import food from the Ukraine and from Russia, you could [25:42.000 --> 25:47.440] actually have them produce their own food, and eventually start to be able to export their food [25:47.440 --> 25:52.960] to other parts of the world as well. And so that's enormously exciting. And if you look at a [25:52.960 --> 25:59.200] world where the alternative, a lot of people with not enough land and not enough water, [25:59.200 --> 26:06.160] that is a world of conflict. That's a world where people need to migrate on epic scales, [26:06.160 --> 26:10.800] because if they don't, they will die, because there's just not enough food available for them [26:10.800 --> 26:17.280] in the local areas. And so vertical farming has a very active role to play in this, [26:17.280 --> 26:22.320] and a very hopeful and exciting role to play in solving this problem. [26:22.320 --> 26:26.400] It's really fascinating when you paint that picture, and you talk about the historical [26:26.400 --> 26:32.000] context and the impact of events that have affected us worldwide, like COVID, like the [26:32.000 --> 26:37.200] war in the Ukraine. And I think it's things that people take for granted that we were going to be [26:37.200 --> 26:43.280] able to continue our current trajectory without any impacts. And I think a large portion of the [26:43.280 --> 26:49.120] world is having that realization. I was recently in Dubai, and I think the number is 85 to 90% of [26:49.120 --> 26:53.760] the food gets imported there. And it's just different parts of the world have different [26:53.840 --> 26:58.080] challenges. We obviously saw an impact in terms of wheat production because of what's happening in [26:58.080 --> 27:02.400] the Ukraine, supply chain issues with what's happening. It's almost been like it's a big wake [27:02.400 --> 27:08.960] up call for folks in terms of really thinking through where we source our food from and why [27:08.960 --> 27:15.040] it's important to have that as close to where we consume it as possible to avoid some of these [27:15.040 --> 27:18.800] issues. Because I think some people don't put the pieces together, I think, when they think about [27:18.800 --> 27:25.360] food consumption, access to food, the need for food. And when that's taken away, you do see things [27:25.360 --> 27:31.120] escalate to the point where countries go to war and there's conflicts arising. And when you look [27:31.120 --> 27:36.960] at the core issues related to that, which you've just highlighted, a lot of it is related to just [27:36.960 --> 27:42.400] maintaining day-to-day life. And that's when people, when that need, when that is threatened [27:42.400 --> 27:46.640] at a country level, it's a direct correlation to some of the conflicts arising. So it's [27:46.640 --> 27:50.400] interesting that you point that out. It's absolutely true. And if you look back at the [27:50.400 --> 27:58.640] 2010 Arab Spring in North Africa and going all the way around from West North Africa, [27:58.640 --> 28:04.960] heading East to Egypt, heading Northeast again into Syria, those were fundamentally caused by [28:04.960 --> 28:10.800] food issues where people were running out of food. In Egypt, they were crying out, [28:10.800 --> 28:16.720] we want bread, bread, bread, bread, because everything was just too expensive. And if you [28:16.720 --> 28:22.320] look at what's going on now as a result of the Ukraine crisis and the Russian crisis, [28:22.320 --> 28:29.840] a very large percentage of North African food comes from Russia and Ukraine. And there's a shortage of [28:29.840 --> 28:36.560] food, but the food that they do get is very, very expensive in a world which is also extraordinarily [28:36.640 --> 28:42.160] expensive in terms of getting access to fossil fuels and so forth like that as well. And so [28:42.160 --> 28:48.480] people are seeing a significant drop in income and a massive increase in the cost of living. [28:48.480 --> 28:54.960] And that creates strife. And so if we can use vertical farming to actually help alleviate those [28:54.960 --> 29:01.840] issues, yet again, it helps create stability in places which historically have been unstable. [29:01.840 --> 29:05.600] Yeah, so true. So for the benefit of the listener who may not know the origin story [29:05.680 --> 29:10.640] of Fisher Farms, can you give a brief recap of how it started? [29:10.640 --> 29:20.640] So I set up the business in late 2016, early 2017. And I basically just wanted to see what I could [29:20.640 --> 29:29.520] do. So I made myself a hydroponics kit and put it at home. And actually, I tied the lights [29:29.520 --> 29:38.160] underneath my wife's vanity table in our bedroom and had a sort of a plastic box with some grow [29:38.160 --> 29:45.680] plugs and some nets and a little aqua sort of fish tank system, and just to see what could grow. [29:45.680 --> 29:50.480] And I was amazed that I actually was able to grow anything. And so I thought, well, [29:50.480 --> 29:56.800] this is kind of interesting. It's actually possible to do this. And then I sort of reached out to [29:56.800 --> 30:02.880] some people I knew to see whether they could help me actually turn that into reality. And so [30:02.880 --> 30:09.520] started off with a shipping container and build the shipping container, designed a racking system [30:09.520 --> 30:14.080] with yet again, the sort of mitigation system to actually produce, know the hydroponic system [30:14.080 --> 30:20.320] needed for a vertical farm. It was a reefer. So we could have fantastic control of the air [30:20.320 --> 30:24.640] in terms of humidity and in terms of temperature. And then I just grew [30:24.640 --> 30:30.240] a whole range of different crops, mainly short leafy green things, some of your salads and herbs, [30:30.240 --> 30:36.160] but also grew things like stevia to see whether we could do something like that as well. [30:36.160 --> 30:43.600] And yet again, got really good results. And so I then reached out to some friends and some former [30:43.600 --> 30:48.320] colleagues of mine and sort of said, no, sort of to have friends and family around in terms of [30:48.320 --> 30:53.920] investment. And they could see that it was an exciting venture, and they worked in the past. [30:53.920 --> 30:58.080] And so they thought, okay, well, you know, put a little extra money in help Tristan out, [30:58.080 --> 31:04.960] we got some great results. And then we got the attention of a fantastic investment house in the [31:04.960 --> 31:12.560] UK called Gresham House who focused on ESG related investments. And they know they've done a lot of [31:13.120 --> 31:18.560] stuff in the renewable space, social housing, forestry, and things like that. And so they could [31:18.560 --> 31:23.040] see the potential of that of farming. And then they provided us the funding to build our first [31:23.040 --> 31:30.800] vertical farm, which was completed in 2019. And then also the funding to build our second vertical [31:30.800 --> 31:37.760] farm, which is currently it's built. And we're just fitting in all the final bits of equipment [31:37.760 --> 31:41.360] at the moment before we start seeding in February next year. [31:41.360 --> 31:44.240] Is this the first time you have the CEO role? [31:44.240 --> 31:51.520] No, I, my first year role was a long time ago, something like 2000, I think 2000, [31:51.600 --> 31:58.720] I was probably my first CEO role had an internet startup. Then I also was a CEO of a company called [31:58.720 --> 32:04.320] Kamco, which was developing projects in China and Russia using the clean development mechanism, [32:04.320 --> 32:09.920] CDM, as part of the creative protocol. So a lot of energy efficiency projects there. And then I had [32:09.920 --> 32:14.560] another company called Lumicity, which I also set up, which was focused on [32:15.200 --> 32:21.120] solar projects and biomass projects in the UK market. So I've been a CEO of an entrepreneur [32:21.120 --> 32:26.720] for quite some time, but I also like working for big companies. I work for Citigroup. I work, [32:26.720 --> 32:32.080] which was a great company. I work for Shell and Shell renewables. And Shell was also a fantastic [32:32.080 --> 32:37.520] company to work for great people, very well run, sort of a lot of excitement, a lot of potential [32:37.520 --> 32:43.680] while I was there. So no, I've worked in various different guises over the years, [32:43.680 --> 32:46.240] but I've been a CEO for quite some time now. [32:46.240 --> 32:49.600] I can definitely relate to the benefits of working for a big company. I was in corporate [32:49.600 --> 32:54.800] for over 20 years. I worked at JP Morgan Chase and on E-Trade as well. So it's nice to have the [32:54.800 --> 33:00.560] backing of a big company like that. And then in 2015, I ventured off into becoming an entrepreneur. [33:00.560 --> 33:05.280] And once you start on the entrepreneur path, it feels like you can never go back to working [33:05.280 --> 33:10.000] the regimented time. And once you have that bug bites, it seems like it's something that's going [33:10.000 --> 33:16.400] to be forever part of your DNA. How have you grown as a CEO with the previous experience you [33:16.400 --> 33:19.520] have and now in the time you've spent at Fisher Farms? [33:19.520 --> 33:25.600] It's a great question. I think that clearly I've got more experience in terms of what to do. And I [33:25.600 --> 33:30.800] feel more comfortable and confident about how to run a business, how to manage people. People is [33:30.800 --> 33:36.160] sort of such an important component of running any kind of business and sort of how you manage [33:36.160 --> 33:41.520] that effectively. I've clearly got a lot more experience in terms of working with investors [33:41.520 --> 33:47.760] and understanding why they want things. And I think having my personal investment experience [33:48.480 --> 33:52.640] many, many years ago, it also helps me to understand what it's like to be on the other [33:52.640 --> 33:58.240] side of the table in terms of those kinds of relationships. But I think that ultimately, [33:58.240 --> 34:02.880] what you're trying to do as a CEO is get the best out of your team. Because ultimately, [34:03.440 --> 34:07.920] you need them. Because they are the guys who are the specialists. They are the ones who [34:07.920 --> 34:12.320] understand lighting. They understand water systems. They are the ones who stand the technology, [34:12.320 --> 34:17.840] the other ones who stand the growing. So those are the guys who are sort of the sector experts. [34:17.840 --> 34:23.520] And I think that as a CEO, we're trying to make sure that people know where you're going, [34:23.520 --> 34:28.960] why you're going in a particular direction. The why is a super important component of people's [34:28.960 --> 34:34.800] motivating facts. Why are we doing something? What's the point? So showing to people why we're [34:34.800 --> 34:40.000] doing something, showing where we're going, I think is important. Trying to get people to [34:40.000 --> 34:45.840] cooperate and actually just get stuff done. Trying not to have silos in organizations. It's quite easy [34:45.840 --> 34:52.960] to develop a silo and have your own team. But you've got to get people continuously communicating [34:52.960 --> 34:57.680] with each other across the various different parts of the businesses. So they feel that they're part [34:57.680 --> 35:04.560] of one company rather than one subset of the company. So yeah, lots of lessons learned. [35:04.880 --> 35:09.360] Along the way. I think what's interesting is when you start a company and you're the CEO, [35:09.760 --> 35:15.120] you have direct contact with the team that you're building with the folks that you've hired. [35:15.120 --> 35:19.040] Naturally, I imagine you work with people that you know, that you've worked with in the past, [35:19.040 --> 35:23.600] that you trust and whose work you know. But as you start to grow, you start to have a need to [35:23.600 --> 35:29.680] develop more trust and faith in your team and your ability and your managers to manage that [35:29.680 --> 35:33.840] growing staff to the point where you can't. There comes a moment, I imagine every CEO's [35:33.840 --> 35:39.440] life when you start to not know who's being hired and have trust that the team is being [35:39.440 --> 35:44.400] developed in a way that fits what your vision of what you would like it to be. [35:44.400 --> 35:50.080] I think that's so very, very true. And when you start up in the business, when you speak to [35:50.080 --> 35:56.800] somebody, that person has the single brain and has the single body to actually make that [35:56.800 --> 36:01.760] whatever happens. So you speak to one person, they say, yes, I'll go off and do it. But as an [36:01.760 --> 36:07.360] organization gets bigger, there is what I refer to as a distributed brain. So there's lots of [36:07.360 --> 36:12.880] people who are involved in that decision. And so each part of that brain needs to be able to [36:12.880 --> 36:17.600] communicate with each other effectively. But it's not just a distributed brain, you also have a [36:17.600 --> 36:22.880] distributed body, because there won't be just one person who's doing that action, there will be [36:22.880 --> 36:28.400] multiple people who are involved in actually making that happen. And all of those people also [36:28.400 --> 36:34.400] need to coordinate with each other and understand why they're doing something, and how they actually [36:34.400 --> 36:40.720] need to cooperate with each other. And so I think early stage businesses can get away with very, [36:40.720 --> 36:46.960] very few processes. And you can just get stuff done. But as an organization gets larger, you [36:46.960 --> 36:53.520] actually need to bring in process. And the trick is to ensure that you have the right amount of [36:53.520 --> 37:00.240] process, and not too little, and not too much. And so the sort of looking for the Goldilocks [37:00.240 --> 37:05.120] level of process with an organization, I think is very difficult. And it's a challenge which [37:05.120 --> 37:10.240] I think all companies go through as they scale. And you also have situations where [37:10.960 --> 37:17.760] people who started the organization develop and have different roles to what they originally had [37:17.840 --> 37:24.240] at the beginning. And so ensuring that they develop in the right way for themselves as individuals, [37:24.240 --> 37:30.320] but also for the company is always a challenge as well. I think that ultimately one of the things [37:30.320 --> 37:38.240] that you're looking for in a business like ours is ideas, and the creation of ideas. And I [37:38.240 --> 37:42.960] mentioned this because there is no real manual that you can just pick off the shelf which says, [37:42.960 --> 37:47.520] this is how to be a vertical farmer. This doesn't exist. There are very few people who [37:47.520 --> 37:53.120] actually have vertical farming experience. So when we're hiring people, we're generally hiring [37:53.120 --> 37:58.320] people who have very good sector experience in terms of what I should say domain experience, [37:58.320 --> 38:02.880] in terms of they're very good engineer, or they're very good water specialists, [38:02.880 --> 38:09.280] but very few of them have actually worked in a vertical farm. And so as an organization, [38:10.080 --> 38:17.440] you need to ensure that people are always putting ideas on the table and how to learn and to [38:17.440 --> 38:24.080] cooperate and not to be frightened of putting their ideas on the table. So I always talk about [38:24.080 --> 38:33.280] bad ideas. So I say to people, look, my terrible idea, plus Harry, your really awful idea, [38:33.920 --> 38:40.240] plus Erik's appalling idea and Christian's dreadful idea. And they're generally bad ideas, [38:40.240 --> 38:43.440] and not like we're pretending that they're actually good ideas, but they're just really bad [38:43.440 --> 38:50.960] ideas. But if you put all those terrible ideas together, they can create a genius idea at the [38:50.960 --> 38:55.920] end of that process, something which nobody was expecting to happen. And if people are [38:55.920 --> 39:02.400] frightened about putting ideas on the table, then they won't. So if there's any sense in [39:02.400 --> 39:07.600] an organization that people get slapped down for putting their terrible idea, they get, ooh, [39:07.600 --> 39:10.960] I'm not really sure I want to put this idea because it's an embarrassing idea, [39:10.960 --> 39:17.520] or what will people think of me? Then those ideas don't happen. And that bad idea doesn't [39:17.520 --> 39:22.720] combine with the other bad idea to create a beautiful, brilliant, genius breakthrough idea [39:22.720 --> 39:28.560] at the end of that process. So encouraging people to work together and actually put all [39:28.560 --> 39:33.600] their ideas together, I think is a really important part of, yet again, creating a culture [39:33.600 --> 39:39.280] within an organization. And I think that as a CEO, creating that culture is very, very important. [39:39.280 --> 39:46.960] Culture of trust, of openness, and dare I say, of kindness and of love and affection. We want [39:46.960 --> 39:52.000] people to be nice to each other, to be good to each other, because if they are nice to each other, [39:52.000 --> 39:57.120] they are good to each other, they're more likely to be able to cooperate and help each other out. [39:57.120 --> 39:59.440] And that's what it's all about, really. [39:59.440 --> 40:04.000] I love the fact that you brought that all together. And then just this idea of being kindness, [40:04.560 --> 40:09.120] being kind, which I think is something that not a lot of leaders talk about. Is this something [40:09.120 --> 40:14.000] that you just learned over the years, Tristan? Or is this something that you've seen in other [40:14.000 --> 40:15.520] leaders that have inspired you? [40:15.520 --> 40:21.520] That's a good question. How different am I now from 20 years ago? I mean, I think I've clearly [40:21.520 --> 40:29.280] grown, I've clearly developed. I have kids of my own, so I have four kids. So I think [40:29.280 --> 40:35.760] you sort of become more aware of others and you become more aware of sharing and not being quite [40:35.760 --> 40:41.920] as selfish as you kind of force not to be selfish when you've got lots of other people to look after [40:41.920 --> 40:46.320] and so forth like that. So I think that being a parent probably really helps in that process. [40:46.320 --> 40:50.640] But I think that ultimately, nobody really wants to work in a company where they've got [40:50.640 --> 40:57.280] horrible people. Why would you choose? So the way I think about it is that anybody who comes to work [40:57.280 --> 41:02.480] for me has to be good. Otherwise, they shouldn't be working for me. But if they're good, it [41:02.480 --> 41:08.240] essentially means that they can go and work anywhere else. And so effectively, they are [41:08.240 --> 41:13.840] volunteering their time to work for me and to work with me. And I don't mean volunteering [41:13.840 --> 41:17.920] the time as in they're not getting paid because they're all getting paid well, [41:18.000 --> 41:23.920] it's not a money thing. It's they're choosing to spend the most valuable resource that they have [41:23.920 --> 41:30.560] in their lives, which is their time involved in a project with me and with all the other people who [41:30.560 --> 41:37.360] are working alongside them. And so you want people to be happy doing that. And I think that [41:37.360 --> 41:42.640] if you're happy, you're probably going to be doing a better job. And if you're doing a better job, [41:42.640 --> 41:46.800] you're probably going to be happy. And therefore, you're going to do a better job. And so it's [41:46.800 --> 41:53.200] a virtuous circle where the happier you are, the better you are, and therefore, the happy you are. [41:53.200 --> 41:57.440] So that's the kind of culture, which I think is really important to try and encourage within [41:57.440 --> 42:02.640] organization. So you know, some businesses are just horrible places to work, and they're [42:02.640 --> 42:08.880] backstabbing, they're mean to each other. And life is too short. Why would you want to why [42:08.880 --> 42:13.200] would you choose to work in that kind of place? If you're really good, if you're not really good, [42:13.200 --> 42:18.320] then you may have no choice. And that's unfortunate. But if you are good, you should be choosing to [42:18.320 --> 42:22.720] work with good people. Very, very important. And it's something I think a lot of leaders don't [42:22.720 --> 42:26.400] talk about. But I think in this environment, especially with what's happened with COVID, [42:26.400 --> 42:32.320] and people's realization, workers realization that they have opportunities now to work anywhere they [42:32.320 --> 42:37.200] want, and sometimes anywhere in the world, and you know, remote work is not going away [42:37.200 --> 42:42.080] anytime soon. So now, it seems like some of the power dynamic is shifted. And I think people [42:42.080 --> 42:47.280] are aligning more with companies that fit their values and where they feel like they can [42:47.280 --> 42:52.160] contribute, but also that their time and their effort is respected and appreciated. And I think [42:52.160 --> 42:56.160] that's something you're alluding to, which I think is great. So I wanted to give you the [42:56.160 --> 43:00.000] opportunity to talk a little bit about the current product offering for Fisher Farms, [43:00.000 --> 43:03.760] how that's changed from when you started to present day, who you currently serve, [43:03.760 --> 43:07.600] what the current offerings are, and who the ideal clients are now. [43:07.600 --> 43:13.680] So in the UK market, there's a heavily focused own brands. So I think that's something which [43:13.680 --> 43:19.760] is quite different from the US market, where I think brands are very, very powerful. Whereas in [43:19.760 --> 43:24.480] the UK, we have a lot of supermarkets who have bought very strong brands of their own, [43:24.480 --> 43:29.040] sort of the Sainsbury's and Mark's Spencers and Waitrose and people like that of the world, [43:29.040 --> 43:33.440] who will have their own branded products. And so for us, it's really trying to make sure that [43:33.440 --> 43:41.280] we give our customers no access to products which work for them, and having some kind of [43:41.280 --> 43:48.160] branding side on top of that. So Fisher Farms at the moment has spent most of its activity [43:48.720 --> 43:55.040] in Farm 1 is now on research and development. So we've been retrofitting a lot of the equipment [43:55.040 --> 44:02.560] that we have in Farm 2 into Farm 1 to actually allow us to develop that technology to make sure [44:02.560 --> 44:09.440] that it works. And the reason for that is that Farm 1 has about 3,200 square meters of growing [44:09.440 --> 44:16.080] space, and Farm 2 has 25,000 square meters of growing space. So it's a significant increase [44:16.080 --> 44:22.240] in terms of the size of what we're doing. In order to keep our costs down, we spend a lot of [44:22.240 --> 44:28.640] time on automation. So I think there's a big difference potentially in the American market, [44:28.640 --> 44:36.800] where labor is, I think, cheaper than it is in the UK market. So for us, it's all about [44:36.800 --> 44:43.280] robots who are able to take products off the shelves, down off the racks, harvest it, [44:43.280 --> 44:49.360] do cleaning on an automated basis, putting in the new growing material and then seeding it [44:49.360 --> 44:54.160] and putting all back into the overall system and so forth like that. So for us, if I look at [44:54.960 --> 45:02.480] what we've been doing over the last 12, 24 months or so, there's a lot of ensuring that Farm 2 [45:02.480 --> 45:08.720] goes live with the best possible technology behind it, which has been tested and tested and tested [45:08.720 --> 45:14.320] and tested and tested, because it's very hard to scale. When I originally started the business, [45:14.320 --> 45:17.440] I thought I was just going to be able to buy things off the shelf. I thought I was going to [45:17.440 --> 45:23.120] just go and buy some lights and buy some racking systems and buy some shelves. And that really [45:23.200 --> 45:29.440] didn't happen. And that's part of where we are in the growth cycle of vertical farming. [45:29.440 --> 45:34.080] And I think that's why you see a lot of different business models, but you also see quite radically [45:34.080 --> 45:39.120] different ways of doing vertical farming. So fundamentally, vertical farming is a [45:39.120 --> 45:45.920] variation on hydroponics on some kind of shelf with lights. That's what it is at the basic level. [45:45.920 --> 45:53.440] But the detail is actually really varied in terms of how people have chosen to do their [45:53.440 --> 45:57.200] irrigation, how they've chosen to do their lights, how they've chosen to do their seeding, [45:57.200 --> 46:02.400] or they do their harvesting, so forth like that as well. So I think it's a bit like looking at [46:02.400 --> 46:08.240] early 1900s and the development of the automobile. There were a whole range of different types of [46:08.240 --> 46:14.320] car shapes, sizes, how, where the wheels, where the steering wheel was, if you even had a steering [46:14.320 --> 46:21.120] wheel, you had electric cars, you had hydrogen vehicles, you had a whole range of technologies [46:21.120 --> 46:29.520] until they eventually coalesced a Henry Ford Model T variation. And then you had the scale [46:29.520 --> 46:35.440] which you resulted and came out of that. So I think that as a business, a lot of focus is on [46:35.440 --> 46:40.320] getting our technology right and basically prepping ourselves for going to market [46:40.320 --> 46:45.360] in February, March next year. What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently? [46:45.360 --> 46:51.840] I look at every single day we have issues and problems pop up. And it's always a question of [46:51.840 --> 46:59.360] is this problem a today only problem? Is it a week only problem? Is a month only problem? [46:59.360 --> 47:05.280] Or is this an existential problem? And you don't necessarily know at the beginning of the day [47:05.360 --> 47:11.040] what type of problem it's going to be. And so there's a level of this huge amount of planning, [47:11.040 --> 47:15.680] which we do in the business. So we're sort of predicting, figuring out what we're going to do, [47:15.680 --> 47:20.480] how we're going to get there. But there's also a lot of unknowns. And, you know, fortunately, [47:21.120 --> 47:26.800] the more we do, the fewer unknowns there are, and the sort of the more repeats businesses sort [47:26.800 --> 47:32.560] of types of questions there are. So yeah, for me, it's really just doing triage of what kind of [47:32.560 --> 47:38.480] issues we have during the course of the day. I think the good news is that I've been entrepreneur [47:38.480 --> 47:44.480] for long enough and have encountered enough really bad issues to realize that actually [47:44.480 --> 47:51.200] nearly all bad issues can be fixed. There's very few things that can't be fixed. And I think my [47:51.200 --> 47:55.200] sort of recommendations and advice for sort of other entrepreneurs and other people out there is [47:55.200 --> 48:01.280] that you just got to break your problems down into little tiny component parts and solve each [48:01.280 --> 48:06.000] one of those tiny little component parts. And before you realize it, you actually would have [48:06.000 --> 48:10.240] solved the really big problem by just dealing with all the little piece, the little problems [48:10.240 --> 48:15.760] bit by bit. And I think just have confidence in yourself that you actually can solve problems. [48:15.760 --> 48:20.560] And it goes back to the idea generation. Sometimes when we're faced with our hardest [48:20.560 --> 48:27.520] problems, we end up with answers, which are significantly better than what would have happened [48:27.520 --> 48:33.680] had we not had those bad problems in the first place. And that's quite a great, that's a great [48:33.680 --> 48:38.720] feeling that you actually end up with a better place as a result of having a problem than had [48:38.720 --> 48:41.920] you not had the problem in the first place. Yeah, there's something about, I think it's [48:41.920 --> 48:49.520] called eustress, positive stress. And then it has this effect of forcing us into a mindset where [48:49.520 --> 48:53.600] we have to think more deeply about the problem and to your point, come up with a solution that [48:53.680 --> 48:58.160] the end of the day is something we would never even thought of had we not been applied that [48:58.160 --> 49:02.560] pressure to ourselves. And I think sometimes we surprise ourselves with what's possible. [49:03.680 --> 49:09.200] It's very surprising what we can come up with. But that's yet again back down to having a good [49:09.200 --> 49:14.640] team and having a good team who are happy to share and put their terrible ideas out there [49:14.640 --> 49:20.480] and to recombine those terrible ideas into really good ideas. And that's culture, [49:20.480 --> 49:24.240] really, as much as anything. How do you create that positive culture within the business? [49:24.240 --> 49:27.520] Coming up at the top of the hour, and I wanted to leave a couple of minutes, [49:27.520 --> 49:31.440] as I've been doing now for these past conversations, given this audience, [49:31.440 --> 49:36.400] given that there's a lot of your peers that listen to this podcast, is there a message that you [49:36.400 --> 49:41.040] have for the vertical farming industry, for your colleagues in this space, anything that [49:41.040 --> 49:45.200] comes to mind? I think that some of the vertical farming businesses have gone into trouble [49:45.200 --> 49:53.440] recently. And I think that my recommendation is that just keep going and work your way out [49:53.440 --> 49:59.280] through these issues. And ultimately, I think you're going to get through it. Certainly, [49:59.280 --> 50:05.200] the whole sector is going to get through this. Vertical farming is here to stay. It just makes [50:05.200 --> 50:11.600] so much sense. And any kind of short-term issues that people may have, I think are ultimately going [50:11.600 --> 50:17.840] to be temporary. So I think just have faith in yourselves and in the knowledge that this [50:17.840 --> 50:23.520] is a great sector to be in, and you will figure out a way. We always figure out a way. [50:23.520 --> 50:28.640] Well, I want to thank you for making the time to come on this podcast and for sharing your story. [50:28.640 --> 50:33.520] I think the breadth and width of experience that you bring is really fascinating because [50:34.160 --> 50:40.080] you have had experience in so many areas around sustainability, around renewable energy, [50:40.080 --> 50:46.720] around creating and tackling these issues of food, shortages that we're having. And it feels [50:46.720 --> 50:51.600] like you're well poised to be in the position you are now. It's almost like all roads in your career [50:51.600 --> 50:57.360] led to this moment. And I think what you're doing at Fisher Farms is really inspiring. And I think [50:57.360 --> 51:00.960] it's helpful to hear those words from someone who's been doing this for a while for others in the [51:00.960 --> 51:05.680] space. So I just want to really applaud all the progress you've made so far and wish you the [51:05.680 --> 51:11.120] best on this journey. Well, Harry, that's very kind of you. I greatly appreciate it. And keep up [51:11.120 --> 51:15.840] the great work which you're doing in Vertical Farming podcast. And I'm sure you're going to [51:15.840 --> 51:21.600] continue to get great guests on board. So well done. And it's very interesting to hear other [51:21.600 --> 51:26.080] people's stories as well. So thank you, Harry. Thanks again for listening. As always, [51:26.080 --> 51:30.880] eternally grateful to my guests for spending that precious hour of time with me and sharing their [51:30.880 --> 51:35.920] story. As always, full show notes available at verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There you'll find [51:35.920 --> 51:42.000] summaries, key takeaways, and resources mentioned, and also a back catalog of all our past episodes. [51:42.000 --> 51:46.240] Special thanks to our title sponsor, Ag Tech Marketing Team. If you or your team have been [51:46.240 --> 51:50.400] struggling to come up with a comprehensive social media marketing plan and don't know where to begin, [51:50.400 --> 51:54.800] reach out to them today. With expertise and strategy, paid media, community management, [51:54.800 --> 51:59.440] content generation, influencer, and email marketing, their team can have you up and running [51:59.440 --> 52:03.840] in a fraction of the time it would take you to hire a full team and at a fraction of the cost. [52:03.840 --> 52:09.120] Learn more at agtechmarketingteam.com, podcast production and marketing provided by Fullcast. [52:09.120 --> 52:12.800] To learn about the five key pillars of a successful podcast that every business owner [52:12.800 --> 52:18.400] needs to know prior to launching, visit fullcast.co and watch the free video. As a reminder, [52:18.400 --> 52:23.200] if you've enjoyed this episode or past episodes, do me a favor. Leave me a rating and a review [52:23.200 --> 52:28.640] at ratethispodcast.com forward slash VFP. Nothing makes me happier than to read those out on future [52:28.640 --> 52:33.440] episodes. And don't forget to tune in next week for a conversation with yet another fascinating [52:33.440 --> 52:37.360] leader from the world of vertical farming. Until we meet again, here's to your health. [52:37.360 --> 52:41.920] Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes for this episode, which includes any [52:41.920 --> 52:48.560] links mentioned in the episode as well as a full show transcription, visit verticalfarmingpodcast.com. [52:48.560 --> 52:55.920] There, you can sign up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240202210301' directory